Filming the Hero's journey- a conversation with director and producer Dimitris Logothetis

Welcome to the Heart of Show business. I am your host, alexia Melochi. I believe in great storytelling and that every successful artist has a deep desire to express something from the heart to create a ripple effect in our society. Emotion and entertainment are closely tied together. My guests and I want to give you insider access to how the film, television and music industry works. We will cover Dreams Come True. The Road Lies, travel, journey, beginnings and a lot of insight and inspiration in between. I am a successful film and television entrepreneur who came to America as a teenager to pursue my show business dreams. Are you ready for some unfiltered real talk with entertainment visionaries from all over the world? Then let's roll sound and action. Well, well, well, to all my listeners of the House, the Heart. See, it's Friday, people. That's why I'm confused and dazed already. But it is welcome to the Heart of Show business podcast. Yet another fantastic episode with somebody who not only is a super well-known producer, director, multi-hyphenate We'll talk about all that but he's also a fellow Greek, dimitris Logothetis. So as we're saying Dimitris Logothetis, we're saying writing Greek. So here on my show we're going to talk about his latest movie, gunner, with a wonderful Morgan Freeman and one of the hands work brother. We're going to know who's the more handsome and talented. I'm going to put him on the spot. But beyond that, he also is the man behind King's Soda Entertainment Part 2, the new version of King's Soda. He has taken on all this amazing classic films of the 80s. He has also produced films with Jean-Claude Van Damme, dennis Way, kurt Russell, to name a few. He's been an EP showrunner at Warner Brothers. He is a martial arts champion I don't know how you can define that A martial arts pro with the French at Jiu Jitsu and what else can I say? His latest movies were selling in Cannes. I got to take a peek at it like, or at least know about it, and so welcome to my show, dimitris.

Well, thank you, alexi, it's very nice to be talking to you.

It's so great to speak to you and honestly, you have me a martial arts because I'm not a martial artist. But I do think that some of those actors and talent who has dealt, not dealt, who are professional martial artists, have had a very prolific career. You know, look at the Van Damme's and look at you know all the people like the John Bautista, I know David Bautista. You can tell like I don't know anything about martial arts and WME fighting or anything. But I want you to tell me how do you get to work with all these incredible actors and why are you focusing on action and martial arts type of movies?

Well, I think, you know, when I first became a filmmaker and I was really a writer, and I started out as a writer and I wrote an awful lot of projects and and I ended up, luckily, working in television, which gave me an opportunity to really focus on story, and you know, the action itself is a obstacle, but the characters that I usually pick are characters that are up against completely unforgiving odds, so they have no chance of ever winning at all, and I'm drawn to those kind of characters. I write those kind of characters where they are just overwhelmingly going to lose, okay, and so, consequently, they go ahead and they choose to go down this path anyway, because they have a code. And these characters have their own code, and it's about family. It's about putting your life on the line for family, whether it's your own blood family or your own chosen family of friends, and you, you know they're characters that want to do the right thing, and so I'm drawn to that. Now that action itself is just the obstacle, and the bad guys, etc. Etc, are the obstacles that are in the way of that, and so that's that's why I originally chose those characters, I think as a martial artist, you know, in my teens I got a black belt in Tanksuto and I also got a black belt in Kempo, and Kempo was the style that Bruce Lee studied under Ed Parker, who was a wonderful sensei, and then Tanksuto I studied under a world champion, and so it ends up creating a core. You know, there's a, there's a kind of a core that you learn. Most of the things that we do in life is all about childhood anyway, and so we develop all of these ways and the kind of character you have, etc. And I believe, if I pull it off properly, that my characters have character and they're the kind of people that you look up to and you hope and you can live vicariously through them, because you know so much of civilization today is about compromise. Well, you know this guy's taking advantage of me, but what can I do? Well, you know this woman's taking advantage of me, but what can I do? Well, the people at this company are not really doing the right thing and they're not giving me back the money that they owe me, but what can I do? My characters don't live with compromise. When something terrible happens to them, or more to their families or somebody that they love, they turn around and they'll punch somebody in the face, they'll turn around and they'll take some action. They'll do the right thing. They'll do what we all want to be able to do, and so hopefully, you live vicariously through these characters. Not suggesting that you should do what they do, but certainly you can have some fun and lose yourself for about an hour and a half and forget about your troubles in the day and just have fun watching my characters do the right thing.

Wow, I love this answer and I have to tell you that's why you're such a great gas for my podcast, because this is exactly the kind of stuff that my listeners want to hear. I also read somewhere in an interview where you're talking about some of the presets of, obviously, martial arts being, or the principles being, loyalty, respect and honor, and you and I both know that those qualities are not necessarily omnipresent in Hollywood business dealings. So I am in life.

I mean, I find I think I'm hoping that the younger generation of all kinds, because my films travel and they tend to last from one generation to the next. You know, I tend to make what's called an evergreen, where it gets re-licensed over and over and over again and hopefully they'll get something out of those characters where it's okay to do the right thing, it's okay to be loyal, it's okay to lose the battle by loyalty, because you're not going to lose the war, okay, and so that's the kind of character I'm drawn to. I mean, look, I'm an immigrant. I came to the States when I was six years old and my father got rest and my mother, you know they. My father was an auto mechanic and he opened up garages and gas stations, and so my entire life I would hear you know, you don't really know anybody in the business, you don't have a chance. Oh, come on, you're wasting your time, you're never going to be able to write, nobody's ever going to buy anything you write, nobody's ever going to let you direct anything, etc. Etc. And I find that I was against all odds myself and I was being Greek and all. I was probably too stubborn or too stupid to recognize. Why not me? Why not me? What do you mean? So you know, I say to everybody who's got a dream it's like why not you? You deserve it just as much as anybody else. I mean, the one thing that my father used to tell me that resonates with me is nobody's better than you, nobody's smarter than you, nobody has more skill than you do, and don't think for one second that you're better than anybody else. But you certainly have a right to succeed in life because of your determination, and so if you take that on, that in and of itself has a respectful statement in it, because not only should people not talk down to you, but you shouldn't be talking down to people. You should put yourselves on an equal level. Okay, and so that's how I proceeded.

Exactly, and I think when you are an immigrant and obviously I can relate, being an immigrant myself is you almost inherently learn to go with the flow, to be fluid, to be flexible, always keeping the eye on the top of the mountain. But you have to learn to be flexible and you'll learn. You have to learn to be humble, and learn humble in a good way, not in a submissive way, but humble, like you said cooperative, know how to respect people, because I think that the people you're going to meet on your way up, you're going to meet them on your way down. Hopefully they won't be a way down for either of us. But I think the immigrant spirit is that resilience, that wanting like you said, why not me?

And it is so important and I think you had that, and this is the best kind of pardon me for interrupting. This is the best country in the world. I mean America. The reason we're here is because it's the best country in the world. There's a lot of things that we could not have done anywhere else, yeah, and this is the place to be, and I love being an American, but, you know, there's a spirit and a groundedness that I have and so, consequently, going back to the characters, I like underdogs.

You like underdogs. And so were you first a writer than a producer, than a director, because obviously you shifted and I'm interested to see how that process came about. I mean, what was the first thing you did? You just started writing a script and then you ended up, you know, finding the money and doing all the things that a producer does, and then you said you know, I want to be a director, I think I can do this because I've been on sets and I think I can do it. How was that transition?

Well, I was always a very good writer. Going all the way back to grammar school, writing was storytelling was always what got me through school. You know, I could. I could always write essays. I started out as an actor, not because I wanted to be an actor, because I was a business major at a junior college here, el Camino, and and then I had to take an either an acting class or a speech class, as it was an elective, you know. And so I decided to take the acting class and the guy who taught the acting class was the head of the department over there and he said you know what? You're a pretty good actor. He said I'm going to star you in the next play that we do here. I was like oh no, I don't want to do a play, please don't. So, in any case, I ended up doing this play and then, out of the play, I got an agent and then I started to do commercials and I started to act in movies. I was doing very well, it was about 19,. I think 20. And I did a movie called New York with Liza Minnelli and Robert Tenero, and and I was on the set and I was still in school. So I was writing an English paper and Marty Scorsese walks up behind me and he said what are you doing? And I said I'm writing this, this paper. I got to get this paper in, you know. And he says let me see it. And I said no, it's not ready to be seen. I said you can't. And he goes oh, come on, let me read. I said no, you know. So he takes it, you know, and he runs away with it and he goes and reads it comes back. He goes hey, you know, you're a pretty good writer. He said you should think about going to film school. And I said what's film school? Because film school was a brand new thing. Nobody knew film school, you know. So he ended up writing me a letter recommending me to film school. And that was the beginning of the process for me, where I decided to start submitting applications to film schools and I ended up getting a scholarship and all that kind of stuff. But but that's how I got into filmmaking and and then, through film school, I started to trip into a number of really good documentaries. I did a documentary for a rock group called the NACC, which had a hit song called my Sharona they were the number one band. Yes, at the time I ended up going ahead and working for this cable TV company, which is a big deal at the time, and I just kept learning how to do things always that were writing based. You always needed to write, you needed to write a commercial, you needed to write a pitch, you needed to write a TV series for the, for the cable company, and so the writing skills started to kick into gear. And then I got into television directing because nobody else wanted to do it. It was non-union stuff and it was overseas, and they consequently started to pick me to be the guy that knew how to deal with Europeans and go work overseas and all that kind of stuff. So, and writing was always the core, because I really knew story and so one way or another, I'd end up writing, you know, and the only thing that was missing was trying to figure out how to raise money, which you often have to do as an independent. One way or another, you always have to sell these projects.

And.

I wish to this day that film schools taught people how to sell, because you either need to pitch it to a studio, you need to pitch it to a foreign sales company, you need to pitch it to an investor. If you can't figure out how to put the money together the actors and the money etc. It doesn't really make any difference if you've got the greatest script in the world. I often I haven't tell everybody. I say you know what? There's probably a lot of guys and gals out there that are much more talented and much better at writing than me. However, they really don't know how to put the project together, so it doesn't make any difference.

I mean, yeah, and I think in our days, obviously, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have all this places where we could research thing, we could watch YouTube videos, you could, you know, you could talk to pros, you could book consultations, you could do all those things, and I think that was very, very challenging. I always say that the filmmakers you are a writer, you better learn how to be a producer, a director, a distributor, a lawyer who knows how to negotiate their IP. You have to know a little bit of everything in order to navigate. I have a question, though, because I feel, yes, the script sells it, the script sells the project. However, do you believe that it is actually the director who sells the actor to sign on to the project, or do you think the script and the money is just enough? I'll be curious to hear your feedback on it.

Well, I call myself a filmmaker because I am, and I think that writing, producing and direct I mean the only reason I produce is because if I didn't, I wouldn't be able to hire myself. So, you know, I hire the best man I know for the job. Yes, yes, I think that the script has to be good, but at the end of the day, everybody and they should are going to look at who is making it, who's involved, and I think it's very important to have a director on board, like, for instance, you know, if a friend of mine wanted to come to me and say I want to do this big outlandish comedy, I'm the wrong person for that. I put a lot of humor in my stuff and I pull off a lot of humor in action, but I'm the wrong person to try to pull off a comedy, you know. And so, consequently, you really do have to do that. Now, there's oftentimes where you'll get a newbie and people will back a newbie and try something new, but most of the time that doesn't work out. I mean, you know, the statistics for motion picture studios are that seven and a half out of 10 movies that they release fail, so they count on two and a half to take them out. They count on the gigantic franchises to go ahead and make a billion dollar, billion dollars today, and they go ahead and cover all the losses of the other seven and a half films. So there is no genius in this, in that nobody knows what when they're making something, if it's going to succeed or fail. But you can at least say you know what. He's going to make a pretty good movie. And as long as you can say that, then people are going to be comfortable getting behind it, and those of us that have been doing this for a long time go. Yeah, you know, that's a pretty good group of people that they put together there. I'm interested in watching that. Anybody who tells you I know for a fact that that's going to be a smash success. They're lying because they don't.

I think longevity is indeed the biggest calling card and I also see, even myself, when I'm working on projects in whatever capacity, the fact that they know that I know distribution, that I know what the market wants, I know what the buyers want. Even though I haven't personally produced the biggest blockbuster movies ever, I will, I'm on my way, but you know that's where I'm aiming for. But at least they know that they can trust me because I know the market and I have experience, as you do. We've seen it all. We've seen all the changes go through the 20, 30 years that we've been around. And speaking of the changes in that I have you noticed that there is a lot of actors from the 80s and 90s we're talking the Vandams of the world, the Stallones, the Schwarzenegger's, even the Morgan Freemans who still in today's world, still being older, they still have a value. I can't seem to wrap my head around anybody in the 20-something, early 30s generation that has a capacity or has the potential for longevity. Why do you think is that? Why do you think that those actors from those days still to this day are able to sell projects, especially in the independent side, where there's other actors who are the younger ones who somehow they work on a specific genre, but then people forget about them. Are they different movie stars? Are they no longer movie stars? Is the era of the movie star over, in your opinion?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think that you brought up Stallone, and Stallone is, as far as I'm concerned, a genius when it comes to putting projects together that fit directly in his wheelhouse. You know, I mean this TV series that he did, which he said the hardest thing he ever did is perfect Stallone and he and it's cast in such a way that you have a really wonderful group of actors around him and young people etc. But he's completely in his lane and here he's coming out with Expendables 4. And he put together that whole crew of guys that you're talking about.

And Cliff.

Hanger, cliff Hanger, and instead of playing a grandpa which is what he should be cast as according to Hollywood, right? Not according to him or the rest of us he's still playing this big deal action star and he's wonderful at stuff like that. So I think that, to answer your question, you know the buyers that you know that you're dealing with. I mean, you have certain sets of buyers, and so how do you get to your movie? How do you get your movie funded? Right, either you have a couple of people that really believe in you and they're willing to give you financing and they're willing to put up all the money for the movie, okay. Or if you're going to go with a conventional route, you're going to go to the buyers around the world and they're going to say who's in it that I can sell the television? Because if I can't make any money anywhere else, who's in it that I can sell the television? And they're going to do what's safe. What's safe Well, I've sold Morgan Freeman a lot. Well, I've sold Stallone a lot. Well, I've sold. And I know for a fact that with these actors in the movie I can go ahead and at least get so much money. And then they start to quantify and they say well, france is worth half a million, a million, whatever, based on these actors, you know, as long as they're co-starring Right. And so I think that's the first tier. Now, after you get past them, then you have to get to the audience. The audience may not care whether or not you've got major stars in the movie or older stars in the movie or not. The audience cares about is whether they're entertained, and if you can't deliver entertainment and they're not entertained, you're not going to do it again. I mean, that's just as simple as that. You know, we happen to live in the 10 to 20 million dollar film price range, Okay or less. Sometimes my friends are doing them for less, and so we're not going to get killed. You know, you come out with a studio film, it's. It costs 80, 90, 100, 120 million. You get one shot at that, and if that movie doesn't do well, then that's pretty much over for you, you know. So I mean, it's really all about how many layers of sellers do you have to go to to allow you to fund a movie and make your film?

Yes, absolutely, and I also think it's finding stories that are resonating with your talent, that your talent is willing to take bakeouts. I mean, my buyers were obviously, you know, output partners with Lionsgate and you know they were behind the John Wicks of the world and all of those. And I mean you saw Keanu Reeves first. John Wick, I mean, he was not his genre. He obviously took up. He came from the matrix, which is different, but there was a moment where his career wasn't great and he was smart enough to take bakeouts, just like Bruce Willis does. Just some of those actors. They take pay cuts because they see the universe being built around those characters. And I think that's another smart way to go is to build universes and that, if you don't have a comic or if you don't have something that's franchisable, at least build the universe. And I think that's the universe.

With John Wick specifically, because you brought it up. The director was the stunt coordinator from 8711, which is one of the biggest stunt teams in the world right here actually and he had trust in him because he worked with him already as a stunt coordinator and so he trusted that he was at least going to make a really good action film. And he took a leap. And if you really you know, I bring that up many times myself, john with the original, because you know the story itself is a western. Yeah, in the original story they kill his dog and everybody thinks, well, he gets all worked up because they kill his dog. They killed his dog, which was the last thing that he had from his wife we adore. His character itself is a bad guy. He's a hitman. He's killed hundreds of people. He's one of the most lethal things that ever existed. However, just like I always, I started by telling you he loved his family, he loved his wife, he was, he adored his wife and that was where his heart came from. Consequently, like in the godfather, you ended up with a character that all of us could relate to. It didn't matter what he did before. Okay, and so they killed this dog, which was the last memory he had of his wife and that brought him back Into killing all these heartless people. Okay, and then you went with it. You just said, great, okay, and that's a western story. I mean, that comes right from the old westerns, you know, where the the poor kid, or the poor woman, or the poor, this I mean Unforgiven. You know it's about a bunch of hookers who, you know, hire this bad, these bad, bad men to take care of this guy that's cut up, one of the young girls you know, and that's that's the genesis of the story that went ended up winning Academy Awards, um, so you know, you always can relate to that guy or that gal who does the right thing, I think, um, and so that's, that's where you go back to.

That is such a brilliant instagrammable quote excerpt from from this incredible podcast, taking you back to Gunnar because I know you're in post production with that, if I am not mistaken because you showed me that you're, I am is what are your hopes? Expectations for it is is because obviously you have an interesting combination of actors. Yeah, I know the story, you told me the story but what are your hopes for it is? This is are you looking at this as a potential character that is going to be franchisable, or characters that are going to be franchisable and doing sequels, or are you going to move on to something else that is completely different after this one?

I never think about stuff like that. Um, I try to make the best possible film I can and I think these actors are so good. I mean, boy uh luke hemsworth and uh, morgan freeman. Morgan freeman is like a poet, and you just watch him deliver these lines and and he makes a meal out of a couple of sentences that you never even thought would work. You know, and uh, it was written by gary scott thompson, who wrote the fast and furious multi billion dollar franchise, and I started working on this I don't know, it's four years ago, I think and I finally got it together and uh, the boys uh who represent were in uh, in this film, as uh, as uh luke's family. Are so terrific. They're also terrific actors, so the core itself. There's a lot of heart there and uh. And then I brought my action team out from thailand, who I started with the first kickboxer remake, kickboxer vengeance, and then they did kickboxer retaliation with me and they did jujitsu with nick cage and um, since then they they worked on extraction, they worked on gray man for netflix, they worked on a number of huge films, and so this action team is a completely different Action team because they're tie and the ties approach action and martial arts action in a completely different way. And uh, it's very unique to the ties you know. So you know I'm. I hope that everybody sees what I see in the film and at first, again, you have to, you have to have your Uh. Luke hamsworth has to buy your heart and and get you to want him to win and recover his kids. Yes, yes.

Well, I have to say congratulations because, by hollywood standards, setting up a project from a moment you pick a script to seeing it produced four years. That's pretty fast by hollywood standards. Well, if kovid hadn't gotten in the way.

I would have been making it two years ago, so D, c. So that's interesting because obviously that was not your own script.

That was somebody else's script and obviously came from a very major major studio. Writer Is. Is there something? If somebody were to send you something, pitch you something, get all of you that said I have something wonderful. What is your criteria? Are you necessarily always looking at Unknown writers? Are you open to unknown writers? What makes you say you're not Unknown writers? What makes you say yes, because we all know the producer's journey could be a very long one and we have to work very hard to get stuff done. What makes you say you know what? I am going to dedicate the next year, two years, three years, however long it takes of my life to see this through. Is there something you're looking for in this?

I don't really know. I mean I don't know the answer to that question. I mean, for the most part I don't Take anybody's projects. I write all my own stuff and with gary I'm. There was a manager who I know Manages him and who brought me this story and I didn't want to do it because I don't like working on other people's material because you know, at any time they can decide to I don't want to do this anymore, or I've changed my mind and you know, time is the only thing that you'll never recover. So, with my own material, I know that if I'm going to put in a year or two or three, as you pointed out, I'm not going to look at myself and say you can't work on this anymore. So, because you can't explain to anybody how difficult it is to put a picture together unless they've done it themselves, and that they'll tend to think that oh gee, you're not really doing this, you're not paying attention to it, which isn't the case. I mean, it doesn't behoove any of us not to make a movie. So we're, we're at the behest of Putting the talent together, putting the money together, putting whatever together, and sometimes, you know, I always tell everybody that films have their own life cycle. Um, you can have the most you know, matrix, so pick any project, um, they can be around for a long, long time before they finally get made. Um, and because they have their own life cycle, suddenly you attach somebody that you don't think. Whatever gets something made, and it gets made. Yeah, which you should try to do is you should always try to do the best you can and deliver the best project you can. And, uh, and I work on one or two things at a time. I don't, I'm not, I'm not one of those filmmakers that can work on 10 things at a time.

Good for you, because you know what it's so hard to multitask. I can tell you from my own personal experience those things. So I think that I'm not going to be a big fan of podcast. You know, buying films for distributors, selling my own films, producing my clients films, doing my own it's. It's a lot to handle and and I think I I envy you in some way because I feel that your martial arts background, together with, of course, your Greek roots, has brought you Maybe safe to assume a sense of peace and and Looking at life with a little bit of a different lens. And a lot of people who are very frantic and they're just going into a cheap, a cheap, a cheap. So what would be, what would be your, if you were to Hapsal it all into one? Is there a life mantra? It's there something that you go by? Um, in Whatever moment you feel you're a little stuck To sort of reminding you about what's it all about and why is it worth it.

Well, again, I think you. First of all, gunner is not a martial arts film, it's an action film and so it's not martial arts centric at all. There's a little bit, but it's not what the other films were. Because of my background and because, you know, one of the very first things I ever did was Champions Forever. When it was at the end of the careers of Muhammad Ali, joe Frazier, george Foreman and I put all those boxers together and I did it, this documentary that ended up winning awards and was the number one documentary in the world at the time. Never intending it to be, I just wanted to put together these guys because I wanted to hear from these guys what it was like to start with nothing, nothing and to end up with something. Whatever you consider to be a success in your life. You know, everybody equates success with money, and if you get a little older, you understand that money has very, very little to do with success. You know. You know, family is really more about success than anything else. Love is really more about success than anything else, and being able to be fortunate enough to do what we do is a huge success in and of itself, because most people are forced to do things just to get through life. Okay, and we're not. No matter how hard things are, we're blessed to be able to do what we do. So what I found out from working with all these people were some of the sweetest people. You would think that fighters are mean and angry and so on and so on. So I mean even Mike Tyson, who I worked with on on a kickbox or retaliation. They're real sweetheart. Steep down the side, okay, and what the? The one winning thing is that I learned from them is when they got knocked down, they'd get up off the mat.

Get up, you're not going to lay there.

You're not going to quit. It hurt. Get yourself together, take a deep breath and get up and get back in the ring. Okay, and that's the thing that I can tell everybody. I mean, look, it ain't perfect. Nothing is if you're looking for perfection by a grave. I guarantee you that you'll end up there, okay, but if you're looking to get through life, the one thing that will get you to step up all the people that we've looked up to in our lives, where you see the Elon Musk's of the world, where you see these people that have achieved all of these things that are just overwhelming and huge, and Steven Spielberg's, and so on and so forth they never quit and, believe me, they've had many failures. Everybody has failures. You fail. As a matter of fact, people who succeed have more failures than successes. All they need is one success, okay, and but you recover, you know and you learn and you keep moving forward. So that's what I would say to people get up off the mat and get back in the ring and start swinging again.

I love that. I love those life nuggets because it just goes full circle with you wanting to do underdog stories and, if we think about it, most of the great ones in every area, whether it's science, whether it's, you know, the Elon Musk of the world, the great filmmakers they are underdog stories and they started as an underdog, as the lone right his own story, he got his own rocky mate and everything. They're underdog stories. So it only makes sense that you would have a passion into telling a lot of the stories with your production and I have to say this has been a total masterclass in producing and filmmaking. And I am so honored to have had you on my show, dimitris, because I can't wait to start doing the show notes on this. There's going to be so many nuggets for the listeners to just go, wow, I'm inspired, I'm ready, I'm ready to create something for myself and for my life that is not just about money, as you said. So thank you for coming on my show and before I close it off, I'm going to ask you what I said. I was going to ask you which is? You already answered one of the two things, but how would you define yourself? In three words, you can say more, it's okay, I'm not going to buy.

Oh my God, thank you, you're welcome. I'm grateful to be a storyteller.

That's beautiful. That is so beautiful From the heart of show business, with so much heart Dimitris Logo Thettys, who really symbolizes exactly that what my show is about the heart of show business. Thank you, dimitris, for coming on my show. Thank you to all the listeners. If you enjoy this specific podcast episode, please subscribe, rate, review, share with your friends, share with those who need it when they're feeling down, when they feel like something is not working in their life. It's not just about show business, it's about life, and thank you for coming on my show, dimitris.

Thank you, alexia. Have a wonderful day.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the heart of show business. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can also subscribe, rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. If you have any questions or comments or feedback for us, you can reach me directly at the heart of showbusinesscom.